Curse

urania · May 21, 2010, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Of course, but you can't depend on getting that character on your team. Necros bringing FF into RA is rare these days.

as said, a mending touch ranger suffices as long as they actually use their touch properly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

So you managed to get a team in which both of your physicals had self condi removal. Congrats? In my experience the chances of that are very low.

mend touch on the r was more vital than the removal on the melee.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Sure, Deny is excellent...when you're dedicating another skill slot to Divine Spirit to power it. Divine Spirit by itself is not worth a skillslot; if you weren't running Deny and you had a spot open for e-management, Sig Rejuv would be a superior pick. It's only the synergy with Deny that makes DS worth bringing - it is an underpowered skill but it makes Deny "overpowered" and thus the two together are worthwhile. So, with this in mind, the fact is that you're using 3 skill slots to power your hex removal. I'm telling you I will NOT do that. I will only dedicate 2 skillslots to hex removal. As such, I've found Spotless and CoP to be the best combination.

ds is well worth it - 11 to 12 seconds of cost-free skills can be VERY helpful.
ultimately, its veil+spotless that present a stronger combo (you keep veil on one physical and/or yourself and spotless on other(s)) than cop+spotless. the latter is a lazy monk's way to remove hexes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Finding decent teams is hard enough. I don't want to further limit myself to finding teams that also have the proper setup to deal with blind spam.

it's not so much about limiting yourself as it is understanding that most of the time good rupters are a must for 25 wins run.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

You're definitely leaving out the factor of skill target swapping involves, which will also separate the level of effectiveness between two Assassins, but that's neither here nor there. We aren't debating the amount of skill it takes to play an Assassin. The simple fact is they are effective and you don't need to wait around for a good Ranger to get 25 wins.

it doesnt matter - hexes will eat them alive, regardless of their target swapping. so will linebacking. they are squishies, after all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Yes and no. Sometimes it was time to reapply Vig Spirit anyway so the cover is natural. At other times, using Spotless without a cover is less of a risk than using Veil without a cover. It's much harder for a hexer to detect Spotless than it is for them to detect Veil. When Veil is on someone, a huge sign appears to a competent hexer - HEY MY HEXES ARE TAKING TWICE AS LONG TO CAST. They will cancel-cast their hex and use an enchant strip on the Veil. Veil necessitates a cover more than Spotless does.

they both have a flashy animation, spotless even has a fairly loud sound animaton accompanying it - ANY good necro will remove spotless with use rip or ce on it, if they'll can. mesmers usually dont, but necros do and its mostly curse nec+ dom mesmer hexways this discussion is resolving around.

moreover, they both need a cover to a fairly great extent with the difference that veil will at least make ce cast twice as long (given their rip ench is recharging).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

That's a funny story indeed but irrelevant since we are judging the power of a bar when it is played best, not when it is played poorly.

its shown as an example what happens if you get cought unenchanted without realising it. i believe it CAN happen to anyone at one point, just to a different extent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

You're not really spending 10 energy just for removal, as most of the time you were already spending that energy to heal yourself anyway. Casting Patient Spirit before CoP doesn't simply waste 5 energy, it heals you. And the 5 energy you're spending on CoP is not simply a hex removal, it is also a heal and condi removal. Removing Vig Spirits that have already gotten good mileage provides further synergy.

yet casting patient is a necessity to remove more than 1 hex, so the more you'll get hex stacked the more energy you'll be wasting on yourself because you cant slowdown their hexing and remove hexes selectively.

another downside of cop is the characteristic that also makes it strong - the fact its a skill and hence cannot use half recharge bonus from your weapon set.

moreover, a well timed diversion STILL owns you (a cliche argument, yet fairly valid in such a situation), so i suppose you'll divert vig or some other lesser skill if need be to save a teammate or yourself.

The Drunkard · May 22, 2010, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Since mind wrack got a buff I thought I might bump my old edenial mesmer

FC 8+1
Dom 11+1+1
Inspiration 10
Earth prayers 6

Mind Wrack
Energy surge
energy burn
ether phantom
drain delusions
armor of sanctity
ether fest
res sig.

this build can now solo pretty much any class that doesn't spike you down, and can keep monks completly out of the fight if you hit them when they're weapon swapping. Sanctity and ether fest makes you pretty durable to melee pressure as well.

thefinalxD · May 22, 2010, 01:46 AM // 01:46

lol karlas so stubborn to accept that monks with condi removals are better with ones that don't, even if the latter has superior hex removal.
spoiled monks that rely on ff necros lol

Zuranthium · May 22, 2010, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

as said, a mending touch ranger suffices as long as they actually use their touch properly.

it's not so much about limiting yourself as it is understanding that most of the time good rupters are a must for 25 wins run.

They really aren't a must. Perhaps you've found you need that safety blanket to Monk RA successfully but it's really not a necessity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

ds is well worth it - 11 to 12 seconds of cost-free skills can be VERY helpful.

It's not free, they still cost 1 energy (so you can't cast on Shield Set with 0 energy), and it costs 10 upfront so if you don't literally spam on recharge while DS is up (which you can't always do) it ends up providing little energy benefit. It can be stripped as well. Sig Rejuv is better as a singular skill for helping to maintain your energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

Ultimately, its veil+spotless that present a stronger combo (you keep veil on one physical and/or yourself and spotless on other(s)) than cop+spotless. the latter is a lazy monk's way to remove hexes.

The latter way requires less management overall, I won't disagree, but I still find it to be better. It's not just about the hex removal either. If that's all CoP did, of course I wouldn't bring it over Veil. However, seeing as this is not the case, I enjoy the healing and condi removal that CoP also provides.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

they both have a flashy animation, spotless even has a fairly loud sound animaton accompanying it - ANY good necro will remove spotless with use rip or ce on it, if they'll can. mesmers usually dont, but necros do and its mostly curse nec+ dom mesmer hexways this discussion is resolving around.

It doesn't matter, the fact is that if they're attention was diverted at all (such as kiting) a hexer doesn't always know if the enchantment on the target just has Vig Spirit or Spotless. They'll know if Veil is there, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

yet casting patient is a necessity to remove more than 1 hex, so the more you'll get hex stacked the more energy you'll be wasting on yourself because you cant slowdown their hexing and remove hexes selectively.

The energy you're spending heals you up too, though. And you won't get interrupted. It's a better combination against a Ranger + hexer, definitely.

Zuranthium · May 22, 2010, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Also, with the recent meta shift, this discussion can now be laid to rest (well, part of it anyway).

I won't be bringing Draw Conditions for this new meta. Assassins are out, Mesmers are in. Mesmers don't need blind removed to do damage. Blind (in the air line at least) got nerfed anyway.

The real question now is...do you even bring Word of Healing? Considering that there are so many Mesmers who will camp you and deny all your energy, I've been playing around with Boon Signet. Yes really. It's the only Elite you can bring that actually does something as you sit there with 0 energy in Shield Set.

Bonetti's Defense
Boon Signet
Patient Spirit
Vigorous Spirit
Signet of Rejuvenation
Spotless Mind
Contemplation of Purity
Dolyak Signet

RhanoctJocosa · May 22, 2010, 08:24 AM // 08:24

open the door to 05, grab ur -ve sets and gogo! =D

urania · May 22, 2010, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

They really aren't a must. Perhaps you've found you need that safety blanket to Monk RA successfully but it's really not a necessity.

its called multiple lines of defense, one of them having offensive nature.
i dont rely on playing vs nub hexers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

It's not free, they still cost 1 energy (so you can't cast on Shield Set with 0 energy), and it costs 10 upfront so if you don't literally spam on recharge while DS is up (which you can't always do) it ends up providing little energy benefit. It can be stripped as well. Sig Rejuv is better as a singular skill for helping to maintain your energy.

it provides a huge energy benefit, especially at the start of the match when the damage is highest and hexes are all yet to be cast.
moreover, it lets you fake deny and veil if need be at the start too, and that already gives you a huge edge vs multiple hexer team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

The latter way requires less management overall, I won't disagree, but I still find it to be better. It's not just about the hex removal either. If that's all CoP did, of course I wouldn't bring it over Veil. However, seeing as this is not the case, I enjoy the healing and condi removal that CoP also provides.

bring mend touch and veil/deny - only 10 energy to remove both your hex and cond stacks

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

It doesn't matter, the fact is that if they're attention was diverted at all (such as kiting) a hexer doesn't always know if the enchantment on the target just has Vig Spirit or Spotless. They'll know if Veil is there, though.

they always tend to remove your ench before hexing you, so hope they dont get a fc on their shame, bf, vor etc and screw your ench reapplying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

The energy you're spending heals you up too, though. And you won't get interrupted. It's a better combination against a Ranger + hexer, definitely.

15 energy every 10 seconds does not look like a very good solution.

about your new bar...it wont ever be able to keep up with damage in ra...in ca it can, but not in ra. you need another heal, patient and vig alone wont ever cut it.
ooooor...camp low energy set whenever you're not casting.

Zuranthium · May 22, 2010, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

its called multiple lines of defense, one of them having offensive nature.
i dont rely on playing vs nub hexers.

Nor do I and I still get 25 wins.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

bring mend touch and veil/deny - only 10 energy to remove both your hex and cond stacks

Sure, if I magically had 9 skillslots on my bar. And those skills can still be rupted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

they always tend to remove your ench before hexing you, so hope they dont get a fc on their shame, bf, vor etc and screw your ench reapplying.

Considering you're in worse trouble if Veil is stripped, not sure what your argument is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

15 energy every 10 seconds does not look like a very good solution.

You don't have to use it every 10 seconds. And it's 10 energy...for 200+ points of healing + hex and condi removal + evasion from interrupts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

about your new bar...it wont ever be able to keep up with damage in ra...in ca it can, but not in ra. you need another heal, patient and vig alone wont ever cut it.

Clearly you've not played RA since the update. And Patient + Vig aren't the only heals, both of the sigs heal.

3 Mesmers + 1 Monk is the new ideal power team. Interrupts, shutdown hexes, and your energy is constantly gone. Of course you camp a low energy set and switch up to cast...but your energy is gone very soon after switching (the less than 2 second window even just to switch up to cast WoH and switch back down is enough time for your energy to be completely gone on cast set). Boon Signet can be constantly faked and can be used while in Shield Set. I'll play around with it more to be sure but it's sadly looking better than WoH right now. Being able to cast something is better than being able to cast nothing.

Sankt Hallvard · May 22, 2010, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Can you guys let me know when people are done playtesting their mesmers in RA? After the OP shit has been determined and anet has toned mesmers and hexes back in line. I might log on to play then.

RhanoctJocosa · May 22, 2010, 10:11 AM // 10:11

cool see you in 3 months xP

urania · May 22, 2010, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Nor do I and I still get 25 wins.

so do I, but the risk of losing before getting 25 is way higher.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Sure, if I magically had 9 skillslots on my bar. And those skills can still be rupted.

but come at a significantly higher cost.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Considering you're in worse trouble if Veil is stripped, not sure what your argument is.

you dont let it be stripped (unless there's strip ench) or if you do you just use it again while they're hexing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

You don't have to use it every 10 seconds. And it's 10 energy...for 200+ points of healing + hex and condi removal + evasion from interrupts.

a 1/4 cast doesnt mean you can always avoid the rupts.
moreover, we're discussing hex stack removals, not single hex removals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Clearly you've not played RA since the update. And Patient + Vig aren't the only heals, both of the sigs heal.

oh, i have - e surge+mind wreck+wastrels worry+overload is officially the gayest mesmer build of the month.
i dont understand whats the point of buffing skills that punish good playing (weapon swapping).
you can basicaly die with 3/4 of hp left while kded in your shield set, if the whole spike chain gets through and as long as you have ca 10 energy left in it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

3 Mesmers + 1 Monk is the new ideal power team. Interrupts, shutdown hexes, and your energy is constantly gone. Of course you camp a low energy set and switch up to cast...but your energy is gone very soon after switching (the less than 2 second window even just to switch up to cast WoH and switch back down is enough time for your energy to be completely gone on cast set). Boon Signet can be constantly faked and can be used while in Shield Set. I'll play around with it more to be sure but it's sadly looking better than WoH right now. Being able to cast something is better than being able to cast nothing.

ive faced about 3 to 4 tripple mes+mo teams in my run today and beat them all (with my "amazing" no ranger and no mesmer team o_o). however, i ran melandru's resilience monk (with sig of devo) and it does work well, as long as your melee doesnt suicide on empathy when its not immediatly removed.

and the problem isnt e denial..its the damage you get from swapping - THAT is the biggest fault of the skill's buff.
well, either it was 60 armor cap on monks or that thou, so yeah.............

Lithril Ashwalker · May 22, 2010, 03:19 PM // 15:19

actually have made a build right here, its more on the RA/JQ side(yes u can cap with it)

optional slot should be Res Sig for ra and optional for JQ/whatever else...used to use alot of energy but since the skills have lower energy and more effect its Hooah Sergeant!

OQREAYoDSKNIcDA2YAyBlTNBAAA

Barbed Signet, Fevered Dreams, Oppressive Gaze, Shrinking Armor, Accumulated Pain, Drain Delusions, Fragility.

Equip:
Pk5xRNz6TjdMvKSFuMFZGmuMFpnYQMFJTaAMFZYtKMFpFA

believe it or not i made this 3 motnhs before the mesmer update yesterday, but since yesterday its alot less energy to gobble up

Zuranthium · May 22, 2010, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

ive faced about 3 to 4 tripple mes+mo teams in my run today and beat them all.

Cool, they sucked then. And feel free to post screens of all of the 25 win runs you're getting as a Melandru's Resilience Monk, since you think it's so good.

urania · May 22, 2010, 08:52 PM // 20:52

nah. the regen and heal from sig owned them kinda.

mel resil monk is more a fun than a real build.

Desperado Doomtooth · May 23, 2010, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Whats really annoying is when they bring wastrels demise ether phantom drain delusions mind wrack leech signet diversion E Surge.They camp on u using these skills is whats annoying eventually the health degen will kill u and the chance they interrupt boon signet with leech signet witch will do dmg and 1 energy loss thanks to mind wrack. Taking hex breaker in ra can greatly help u cus its not just KD warrior's you have to fear now its the huge influx of e surge Mesmer's and just e denile in general.

bhavv · May 23, 2010, 02:44 PM // 14:44

25 wins with triple mesmer team:

Its easy if you get an anti melee, anti caster, and whatever else with damage.

We rolled other 3 mesmer teams in no time, sin + derv teams didnt stand a chance. The only thing that nearly ended it was a Lyssas Form D/A that managed to kill two of us really fast, but we still outpressured them (they had a D/A lyssas, Seeping Wound Sin, Another derv with a Spear elite and a Monk).

Me camping the D/A, or whoever seemed to be the biggest melee / ranged threat = win. Against full caster teams, I just supported the other two mesmers by spamming illusion of pain and Accumulated Pain.

Energy management on my bar was crappy though, particularly if Waste Not Want Not didnt trigger. You have to be really careful using that one if the opponents dont stop attacking, but it usually works after a clumsiness interupt.

Cats Make Rawr · May 24, 2010, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Since the implication of the latest balanced I have trouble keeping people alive as a Monk, mostly due to the massive energy drain; often it is not only one Mesmer in the opposing team.
I tried running PnH instead of the regular WoH bar, to be able to remove Mind Wrack + cover hexes easier, but experienced that I lack the bar-push versus a lot of competent teams or versus teams with a lot of raw damage (i.e. Eles).
Because of this massive E-Drain I started using my Low Energy set again, still I happens that I'm completley drained.
So my question would be if there is a "better" bar to run, or if I have to adjust my playstyle; if the latter, on what shall I focus other than weapon swapping.

Thank you in advance.

Desperado Doomtooth · May 24, 2010, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cats Make Rawr

Since the implication of the latest balanced I have trouble keeping people alive as a Monk, mostly due to the massive energy drain; often it is not only one Mesmer in the opposing team.
I tried running PnH instead of the regular WoH bar, to be able to remove Mind Wrack + cover hexes easier, but experienced that I lack the bar-push versus a lot of competent teams or versus teams with a lot of raw damage (i.e. Eles).
Because of this massive E-Drain I started using my Low Energy set again, still I happens that I'm completley drained.
So my question would be if there is a "better" bar to run, or if I have to adjust my playstyle; if the latter, on what shall I focus other than weapon swapping.

Thank you in advance.

Hum try pre veiling your self and us hex breaker u culd also try running a boon signet bar and switch between high and low sets to heal there are some pve staff that have 60 hp and give 15 extra energy get one of thous

urania · May 24, 2010, 07:26 PM // 19:26

hope your team kills them faster and/or disrupts some of the vital hexes (ie you have to preveil yourself for double cast time on hexes).

awry · May 25, 2010, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Well honestly I don't think pnH is the best counter to this meta as a monk. I would say, emphatic removal is the best as it provides more utility+extra healing and helps add some much needed bar compression for a very good 7 recharge. It's a very energy efficient skill for only 5e. My current monk bar is:

Emphatic Removal, signet of rejuvenation, guardian, vigorous spirit, vow of piety, patient spirit, cure hex, gift of health

Got to 5 wins with this build after new meta, got killed by mes, mes, degen nec, i haven't played extensively but vow of piety takes care of most problems w/ melee trains and I can keep myself and my party pretty clean. I can't powerheal extensively, but I can keep mind wrack off me 95 percent of the time. Only issue is the ham war going /p, but hey, usually they never even realize i have vow up most of the time.